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Monday, June 5, 2017

Detective Comics #850 1st Gotham City Sirens Debunked!


Oh, hell, I might as well. Since I was asked (it was more like a suggestion) by Kevin over at the SIC Comics group to do a write up debunking Secret Avengers #23, which I debated about for a bit, I might as well debunk this one here also.

Not too long ago, a Gotham City Sirens flick was announced after the heels of the extremely disappointing Suicide Squad movie (I thought). Of course, there came an odd claim that Gotham City Sirens first appeared in Detective Comics #850 that sprung up and the belief of that is still going on pretty strong even currently.

Where this information comes from or who spits it out there is beyond me. Actually, I really don't know.

All this stuff pretty much reminds me of this scene in Space Balls.
 


Hey, I know that we can't possibly know everything about every single comic or character out there. We all make mistakes, no doubt. Never claimed I was a guru or knew it all when it came to comics either.

However, this isn't really an isolated incident and the same logic to these debut claims seem to be pretty similar, meaning the same logic must come from the same source. I wouldn't doubt if this particular debut claim is from the same source that tried or still tries to pimp Swamp Thing #49 or #50 as the 1st Justice League Dark. 

So let's warp into Ludicrous Speed and uncover Detective Comics #850.

Here's where I will agree with concerning this comic: 

  1. Detective Comics #850 is the conclusion of the Heart of Hush story line. 
  2. The events in that story is part of a lead up to the eventual formation seen in Gotham City Sirens #1, but there are actual comic issues and another big story line in-between. 
  3. Catwoman, Poison Ivy, and Harley Quinn are in Detective Comics #850.

Despite all three of them being in the actual comic, Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn are only seen in cameos near the end of the story, and that is one panel for each of the ladies. Furthermore, neither of the three are in the exact same location, meaning they do not interact whatsoever in the issue.

It is revealed that Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn did help Catwoman get revenge on Hush. Is this where the confusion comes in or the possible claim? 

Pretty flimsy. Let me explain further.

So Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn helped Catwoman with a caper, and that supposedly signifies the formation of Gotham City Sirens before they actually agreed to be a team? I dunno about some peep's sense of logic out there.

It's like saying a famous band "officially" formed when all five members had a one-time jam session with a few other musicians for fun during their high-school days back in Indiana, as opposed to when those exact same five members each moved to Los Angeles separately within a two year span later, met again, and actually decided to form the band with the name they are associated with.
 
Maybe it's just me but I don't get the first logic to the above paragraph. Anyway, let's look at the actual scenes in Detective Comics #850.








Hmmm....I can almost see the argument but there's still some things I would question. So those panels have two other females not part of the Gotham City Sirens who helped in Catwoman's caper of revenge on Hush. One of them is Oracle or Barbara Gordon and the other is Holly Robinson.

If this caper supposedly is the official debut of Gotham City Sirens because Catwoman assembles her "old friends", then I suppose Oracle and Holly Robinson must be part of the original Gotham City Sirens team then, right? Nope, they're not.

Also, it's also pretty clear that the ladies are working independently from each other and not really as a team. Sure, they're doing the bidding of Catwoman who is orchestrating this all but there's absolutely no mention of an official team nor even seeing them together like a team.

Gotham City Sirens #1 actually shows the trio starting off as not part of any team but later agreeing to form a group or band together to protect one another. I already showed these panels in a previous and highly unrelated post but I'll show them again.

Actually, I think I'll do an extended version. So the beginning of this comic takes place a little more than 2 months after the conclusion that happened in Detective Comics #850. They, meaning Harley, Catwoman, and Poison Ivy, apparently haven't seen or spoke in a while.

Selina finds out that Poison Ivy is staying with the Riddler against his will. Also, Harley Quinn has surprisingly moved into the place as well.




Poison Ivy gonna ask Zatanna what's up with Selina in order to somewhat answer why she wants to start this trio of femme fatales all the sudden.

 

Poison Ivy and Harley say they're in, thus "officially" forming the trio that is under the banner of the Gotham City Sirens "titled" comic series. How can a group be formed prior to officially forming the group or consenting to be a group?

Not saying that there isn't connective tissue between Detective Comics #850 and Gotham City Sirens #1. There obviously is and the events in Detective #850 are referenced  a lot in Gotham City Sirens #1 for sure.

However, they do not form any kind of official group in Detective Comics #850, unless Oracle and Holly Robinson are part of the Gotham City Sirens team which they aren't. There is no mention of them seeking to establish or confirming any kind of official group in that comic also.

Also, there are issues in-between Detective Comics #850 and Gotham City Sirens that happen and also lead up to the GCS comic series. One of those issues is Detective Comics #852 which takes up immediately after the ending of Detective Comics #850.

Catwoman is in the comic and shows up at the very end when Thomas Elliot (Hush), looking like Bruce Wayne, finds himself in Vietnam and Catwoman is a leader of a band of pirates or something. Oh, hell, I might as well! Here's some panels to Detective Comics #852.




So Thomas Elliot tries to commit suicide after being burned by Catwoman as revealed in Detective Comics #850, but wakes up to discover that he can pass for Bruce Wayne. So, he goes around as the man for a while until he meets up with Catwoman at the end.

Scenes from Detective Comics #852

As we can see in the reference at the bottom of the splash page, the story is continued in Batman #685, and then Batman #686 and Detective Comics #853 do some kind of weird funeral for the Caped Crusader that supposedly isn't part of canon. Pretty weird issues for those two.

Then the whole Batman: Battle for the Cowl story line takes place prior to Gotham City Sirens #1. So it's a pretty long setup between Detective Comics #850 and Gotham City Sirens #1. Not like the story immediately jumps from that issue to GCS #1.

Once again, taking a look at the actual issues of Detective Comics #850 and Gotham City Sirens #1, I have no idea where this confusion comes in or how it can be misconstrued that Detective Comics #850 sees the formation of Poison Ivy, Harley Quinn, and Catwoman as the team when they are obviously shown as not being any kind of team in the beginning of the first issue of Gotham City Sirens. I mean, most of Gotham City Sirens #1 is about them forming the team that the comic series is about.

It's not semantics or a misunderstanding of word meanings. It's not confusion concerning panel or page count to determine how industry might label a debut as a cameo, brief, 1st, or 1st full appearance.

This is a strange and twisted logic that if a few members of a certain team show up in a prior comic then that comic must be the debut of that team. It doesn't matter if the creatives who actually created the team are actually involved in whatever prior comic issue or not when it comes to these false claims stating whatever.

For the record, Paul Dini did write both Detective Comics #850 and Gotham City Sirens, and he actually is the creator of the GCS comic series. In the example of Swamp Thing #49 and #50 and the Justice League Dark comic series, they have two very different creators, and Alan Moore is not associated with the actual creation of Justice League Dark.

Still, just because members of a team have a team-up in an earlier comic does not signify the debut of whatever team they do officially form in a later comic. Their formation in those two comics could be for completely different reasons.

For example, just because Namor, The Hulk, and Silver Surfer are seen as the Titans Three in Sub-Mariner #34 and #35 does not mean that those issues debut the Defenders team. Does not matter if that prior comic leads up or sets up the setting of the comic series that actually does debut the Defenders.

I think I've let this ridiculousness go on long enough, and I mean both the claim that Detective Comics #850 has the 1st Gotham City Sirens and this actual post being longer than I anticipated. I think most of you are probably fed up with this as well.

Detective Comics #850 has a different reason for the very loose team up of Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, Oracle, and Holly Robinson under the direction of Catwoman than the reason why Catwoman, Harley and Ivy decide to band together in Gotham City Sirens #1 and the rest of that comic series.

In conclusion, it's pretty obvious that Gotham City Sirens #1 is the debut of the team that Catwoman, Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn form for the self-titled comic series. I mean, it's not an overtly tough one to figure out after reading both issues, and I am getting tired of these false debut claims. They're getting annoying and I believe it's actually hurting the market and the hobby in the long run more than doing any long-term good. Once again, Detective Comics #850 copies are currently and wrongfully selling as the 1st appearance of Gotham City Sirens on ole eBay. Absolutely ridiculous and this wrongful debut claim is most likely actually taking heat away from the rightful debut of the trio clearly seen in Gotham City Sirens #1.

Unfortunately, neither CGC or CBCS is noting Gotham City Sirens #1 as the debut of the team currently. That may make it easier for Detective #850 to continually slide by but a proper notation for GCS #1 might help to curb this a little.

Still, we can all do something to curb this crap as well. Share this post to as many places where comic collectors, speculators or comic investors gather. Speak up at other places about some of these "debut" claims if find them odd. Tell a Spartan passing by.

I think I'll end this with a quote by Paul Dini during an interview with CBR discussing the Gotham City Sirens comic series just right before it was about to come out. 

"Gotham is a more dangerous place these days. It’s a trick just to stay alive. Catwoman, Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy have been both allies and enemies over the years, but at this point they realize there is safety in numbers. 

Ivy is on the loose thanks to the destruction of Arkham and she’s not looking to be taken back into custody. Harley was actually released on Bruce Wayne’s say-so when he was a member of the Arkham parole board and has been having a variety of adventures throughout the DC Universe. 

Catwoman has been dealing with the loss of her daughter and recovering from having her heart removed by Hush. She’s obviously feeling vulnerable. So their agenda is really to carve out a place for themselves in the darker, dirtier city Gotham has become and mine it for all its worth. Anyone crosses them, they get scratched."




38 comments:

  1. I'm with you all the way on this Mayhem. I posted my own comments about this on a forum on another website. This was one of the books I mentioned on it along with Secret Avengers 23 and a few others as well. A lot of miss information out there on certain comics.

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  2. Awesome work here, love these debunked write ups you have been doing. Your work just keeps getting better and better some of the best on the net.

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  3. You are a guru I've silently read your site going on 7years now, your the best at what you do and this is coming from someone who writes weekly for another comic site. I reference your checklists all the time, and you have made me a lot of money.

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  4. its like the arguement Sub mariner 34/ 35 or Marvel feature #1 as first defenders? submariner 34/35 has silver surfer. marvel feature #1 does not. so subby, hulk, surfer or subby hulk and dr strange?

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  5. SLAMD(EB)UNK! You did it again. Great work Master Mayhem. Now, if you could make a key issue out of my Micronauts 1, please!

    Ace

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    1. Sounds good, Ace...am reading up on the series! Give me a few before I do.

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  6. Cbsi can suck balls

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    1. Curl up with those golden age books. I can almost guarantee in 20 years youll have a hard time trading you books for rice.

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  7. This all started at CBSI one guy said it was so and Trey agreed. It was a snowball effect after that with their followers. It was eventually posted on thier top 10 and that's how this crap started.

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  8. Yet another cBSi pushed first appearance debunked. Great job here and you kill it every time.

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  9. Who the hell is cbsi? Lol

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  10. Anyone who wants to talk shit about CBSI come on over and say it in the open instead of hiding on an anonymous forum. CBSI has done more to raise interest in comics than anywhere else, hands down. It's ridiculous that there's so much sanctimony about collecting comics. You want to "invest" for real, contribute to your 401(k) or play the stock market. Otherwise, STFU.

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    1. If by raised interest you mean brought a more toxic element into comics than ever, we all agree, the only followers on that group anymore are bottom feeders you sell these lies too

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    2. Funny that YOU say:Anyone who wants to talk shit about CBSI come on over and say it in the open instead of hiding on an Anonymous forum......when you wrote it on an Anonymous moniker yourself !!!!! So Yellow Bastard maybe YOU should be the one to STFU !?!?

      And CBSI has done more to raise THEIR personal interest in comics(Pumping books they own or have a vested interest in like exclusive books sold to CBSI members by CBSI ring leaders)than anybody else hands down=Perfectly right they did !!! Still do it to this day.

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    3. Notice it is a CBSI person who immediately goes to a racial slur... that's all you need to know about the group.

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  11. This gentleman above is clearly part of cbsi. One I would argue that films and shows based on comics have done plenty to raise awareness but who is counting right? Also what does investing in the stock market have to do with comics? The site has investing in it's title genius, so yes they are open to criticism about their investing tips (comics).There is a history of bullshit spec and pushed books that lined someone's pockets. Calm down Suzy, it's only the internet. Wear that cbsi shirt at cons and pay attention to how some look at you. Cbsi4Life right? It's an open comic book community, it's not that serious but calling out bullshit is serious so that's what we have done. And this is far from a hidden forum. TotalComicsMayhem has been killing it for a long time.

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  12. ^^^^ Trump telling others to not post anonymously after posting anonymously. Classic

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  13. cbsi has raised more interest in comics than anywhere? That's an easy claim to debunk as well, must be from a disgruntled cbsi stan. Who is also hiding anonymously, oh the irony and hypocrisy but that's typical bs from there. Mayhem been doing this much longer than cbsi been around so that claim is already garbage. Everyone is just as aware of Mayhem as cbsi. Only thing cbsi raises, is the inner circles bank accounts at the expense of the stans that buy into their cbsi affiliated retailer exclusive variants after having the artists shoved in their faces for a year. Well, that and bunk claims like this one and Agent Venom after the inner circle buys up cheap copies, waits a little bit, and then starts to push the book in articles, in the girl scout podcast, on their group community, at cgc boards, the Top 10 which causes members to rush and buy up those cheap copies at inflated prices. Then when crap falls through, they push it back on the members like you should have done your own research, we never said to go out and buy it blah blah. That's they typical cop out, blame the members for buying in when they push a bad spec. Yea they do so much for comics lol.

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  14. It was my post. I would say ask Dini. Your quote from him must have been around August 2009 but the books were written long before that summer and his quote here doesn't really address the issue. No matter what I would say his input is important. These things were plotted long before we saw them in print so I think GCS was probably all part of his planned narrative. Either way the book is a key and the market seems to agree. Nice article!

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  15. If it wasn't for CBSI people wouldn't be paying hundred of dollars for some old variant that isn't key and they didn't even want or know of it to begin with until it was put in your top 10 and bought out for cheap before hand by you guys to flip. Same thing you guys do with 2nd print books at CBSI buy em cheap pump em up on your site and dump em on your own readers of your site. How Nice

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  16. Maybe you should re-title these articles to "How I hate CBSI" The information you provide is valuable to any lazy collector, who doesn't do their own research, but slamming other sites while doing it is a bit childish. Specially when your "Key" articles miss issues or talk up books that are worthless.

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    1. As it states in the article, TCM doesn't know whose been pumping out this info. Another classic case of a lame CBSI follower not reading! Go figure, friggin' drone!

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  17. For the ones that are saying CBSI sucks, etc you sure seem to know what's on their site pretty well. Sounds like you are all on there quite a bit....

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    1. We watch trainwrecks too. Doesn't mean much when it's put into context does it?

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    2. Right - you are just going on there to watch a train wreck. I buy that.

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  18. Unfortunately like I said back at the top. The research was don't by a person. Trey at CBSI pumped it up and later approved it going on the top 10. Also boasted how the one person could have been rich but shared his info instead. I give props to the researcher but CBSI does have a sway in the market and they know it. They can't deny that. They over shot the gun with this one. Not the researchers fault but it's like CNN or a news outlet putting out fake news not knowing there source may have been wrong. CBSI is bigger than people think with the market and they do have influence that isn't always the best. It's speculation I get it but we all have the ability to do our own research and that's reading.

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  19. Cupcakes Khoi BoiJune 6, 2017 at 10:17 PM

    To the fat Asian from Houston, it's not a conspiracy kind sir. No one there does anything shady or wrong at all. You are right. All of this "hate" comes from out of the blue. Yes that's it everyone that feels your site of bad for the comic market, it's all a conspiracy. Keep telling yourself that. The followers who don't know some do can defend it all they want but it will all come to a head. It's all just haters from different facets of the comic collecting community banding together against a Google group. Yep that's it. Smart man

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    1. Oh - you hate CBSI too and you also obviously go on there anyway. You are so cool! Your super original insults are so amazing too. How can I learn to be so cleverly sarcastic like you? Teach me how skinny non-Asian from another city!

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  20. Oh man, please go and collect YugiOh or Pokemon ye' all...

    Max Rebo

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  21. Try reading the CBSI article one more time. He doesn't stand on a soapbox and proclaim this as solid fact. Topher shared his opinion and stated what he believes. You can take it or leave it. To shit on a dude for sharing his thoughts on a comic is childish. You guys are some serious drama queens.
    You can take this author's logic and apply it to several key books. It comes down to what the market finds relevant. The market will deciede and none of our opinions will change the course of that wave. Is Tec 850 important to the origin of GCS? Absolutely.

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  22. Mayhem, the response is overwhelming! This calls for a CBSI special!

    Ace

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  23. Wow what the hell did I miss JW

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  24. Oh look its the anti-CBSI crowd here to piss and moan, must be that time of month. Make sure to swap your pads out ladies when the hate flow gets too thick.

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  25. Yes listen to CBSI they will tell you that the Jean Grey #1 Campbell variant is a $140 book but you can still buy it for retail at the Campbell store for retail price #2 on their top 10. Or you can go with number 9 on their top ten Venom #150 Mattina variant which they claim is a $75 book just for one from the set but again can be bought at retail from the store it comes from. Like president Trump you either are oblivious to the fact or your being dishonest purposely to pump books that you bought.

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  26. I think a healthy debate on the merits of a comic book's historical value and/or speculative value is important. Let the reader decide after reading all the related articles on this and other sites which one he or she wants to pursue. I'm not sure there is any value in any other kind of debate. The comments resulting from this well-written article is....well....interesting.

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  27. Hey guys I am a member of CBSI, but I am also a long time reader of other sites such as TMC, which I absolutely love. I buy what I want, no one has ever influenced me to pick up a book I wanted in my collection. Do I speculate on picking up certain titles with hope to make some profit (yes and no), the reason for both is 99% of my books are special to me for my collection to be passed to my little guy when he is older. Sure I could sell everything right now and have a nice nest egg, but I would miss the enjoyment of holding a book close or showing it off to my boy. He is only 5 but he can tell you darn near every super hero or villain when I show him one of my books. He is captivated with listening to the story, and this is something that CBSI and other sites such as TMC, CGC etc... will not have the benefit of seeing as this is my life.

    So thanks again TMC, keep doing what your doing, I enjoy a healthy debate as much as the next one. You will not see me bash any comic site, and this is not the person I am, but you will have my support as I want the medium to continue to flourish not cannibalize itself with negativity.

    Until Next Time,

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  28. Hey yo Mayhem,

    Black Panther trailer looks mighty cool! Check it out man!!!

    Delorean

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